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Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 14:20:05 +0300
From: "Igor Ya. Pavlinov" <igor_pavlinov@zmmu.msu.ru>
To: Michel Laurin <laurin@ccr.jussieu.fr>
Cc: PhyloCode <phylocode@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: on universaliy of Phylocode
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_XOh5UobvFDNGlMx/PhlUeA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: on universaliy of PhylocodeDear Michel,=20 if you ever read my paper I've sent you you woudl see that my somewhat = sceptical position in respect to the phylocode is caused by my = "historical" view of that fates of various classificatory approaches. = You just recall that "the new systematics" and phenetics were dominating = prior to cladistics in XX century while the pre-phylogenetic taxonomy of = XIX century was based on naturphilosophie. And where they all are now? = So, I suspect there will come time when cladistics along with the = phylocode will become "old-fashioned". It is neither bad nor good, it is = just a general law of development of any scientific discipline. And = unity of language is one of the most strong "glue" factors that make = different classificatory approaches just branches of the same biological = taxonomy.=20 Of course, this provides specific problems considered recently by Marc = Ereshefsky: for instance the Linnean species are not the Darwinian ones = although they are both called "species". But then we have to acknowledge = that "eco-species" are not the same as "phylo-species". Following the = logic of the phylocode promoters, we have to adopt different = nomenclature to different kinds of species, and each author, before = naming his/her species properly would be oblidged to decide first with = which kind of species he/she deals with.=20 And this returns us to the phylocode again. It is applied to = monophyletic taxa which is excellent in theory. But practice is much = more diverse than it is presumd by any law. Suppose you recognize and = name a group as monophyletic. And someone else disapprove your = conclusion or disagree with your opinion - say, just because that = someone disagree with your method or a programm employed (Farris vs = Felsenstein vs Estabrook vs Swofford). What it may mean from the = phylocode standpoint? How one has to treat names of taxa which supposed = monophyletic status is falsified by other studies or is not acknowledged = by other members of taxonomic community? Does phylocode considers such = a situation? I gues it doesn't. Igor ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michel Laurin=20 To: Igor Ya. Pavlinov=20 Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 1:10 PM Subject: Re: on universaliy of Phylocode Hi Igor, I speak only for myself, but as I understand it, I expect the = PhyloCode to co-exist with the rank-based codes for some time, = especially that it currently does not deal with species (binomial) = names. This last point may change soon, but I don't think that anybody = expects all systematists to drop the rank-based codes tommorw and = adopt the PhyloCode; that's what I will do (and most participants of the = First International Phylogenetic Nomenclature Meeting), except for = species names, but I know that some of my colleagues won't follow us, = at least right now. Sincerely, Michel In several responces on my last communication, an idea occurs that = Phylogode is designed for cladists and that those non-cladist guys = disagree with it are free to go their own way. OK, it looks like a = special kind of plurality in science which I like very much and even = published a paper entitled "It is normal for the classificatory = approaches to be diversed". But does such a nomenclatorial pluralism = presumes that several Codes of nomenclature are allowed to rule over = taxonomic community? Suppose rigorous cladists (of whatever school) will = reject the International Code and will adopt the Phylocode on one of the = Willi Hennig society meetings - then what about unity of taxonomic = language in general and nomenclature stability in particular? Igor P.S. A quesion to the moderator: will you please explane if a = responce to a comment came from a particular e-mail address woulld = circulate over all forum participants? - - - Dr. Igor Ya. Pavlinov Chief, Division of Mammals Zoological Museum Moscow M.V.Lomonosov State University ul. Bol. Nikitskya, 6 125009 Moscow Russia Tel.: (095)2032940 Fax: (095)2032717 E-mail: igor_pavlinov@zmmu.msu.ru =20 --=20 Michel Laurin FRE 2696, CNRS Universit=E9 Paris 7 - Denis Diderot 2, place Jussieu case 7077 75005 Paris FRANCE tel. (33 1) 44 27 36 92 fax. (33 1) 44 27 56 53 http://tolweb.org/tree/laurin/Laurin_Home_page.html --Boundary_(ID_XOh5UobvFDNGlMx/PhlUeA) Content-type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: on universaliy of Phylocode</TITLE> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <STYLE type=3Dtext/css>BLOCKQUOTE { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } DL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } UL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } OL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } LI { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } </STYLE> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>Dear Michel, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>if you ever read my paper I've = sent you you=20 woudl see that my somewhat sceptical position in respect to the = phylocode is=20 caused by my "historical" view of that fates of various classificatory=20 approaches. You just recall that "the new systematics" and phenetics = were=20 dominating prior to cladistics in XX century while the pre-phylogenetic = taxonomy=20 of XIX century was based on naturphilosophie. And where they all are = now? So, I=20 suspect there will come time when cladistics along with the phylocode = will=20 become "old-fashioned". It is neither bad nor good, it is just a general = law of=20 development of any scientific discipline. And unity of language is one = of the=20 most strong "glue" factors that make different classificatory = approaches=20 just branches of the same biological taxonomy. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>Of course, this provides specific = problems=20 considered recently by Marc Ereshefsky: for instance the Linnean=20 species are not the Darwinian ones although they are both called = "species".=20 But then we have to acknowledge that "eco-species" are not the same as=20 "phylo-species". Following the logic of the phylocode promoters, we have = to=20 adopt different nomenclature to different kinds of species, and each = author,=20 before naming his/her species properly would be oblidged to decide first = with=20 which kind of species he/she deals with. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>And this returns us to the = phylocode again.=20 It is applied to monophyletic taxa which is excellent in theory. But = practice is=20 much more diverse than it is presumd by any law. Suppose you = recognize and=20 name a group as monophyletic. And someone else disapprove your = conclusion=20 or disagree with your opinion - say, just because that someone = disagree=20 with your method or a programm employed (Farris vs Felsenstein vs = Estabrook vs=20 Swofford). What it may mean from the phylocode standpoint? How one has = to treat=20 names of taxa which supposed monophyletic status is falsified by other = studies=20 or is not acknowledged by other members of taxonomic community? Does=20 phylocode </FONT><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2> considers such = a situation?=20 I gues it doesn't.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Cyr" size=3D2>Igor</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A href=3D"mailto:laurin@ccr.jussieu.fr" = title=3Dlaurin@ccr.jussieu.fr>Michel=20 Laurin</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:igor_pavlinov@zmmu.msu.ru" = title=3Digor_pavlinov@zmmu.msu.ru>Igor=20 Ya. Pavlinov</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 06, 2004 = 1:10=20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: on universaliy of=20 Phylocode</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Hi Igor,</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><X-TAB> </X-TAB>I speak = only=20 for myself, but as I understand it, I expect the PhyloCode to co-exist = with=20 the rank-based codes for some time, especially that it currently does = not deal=20 with species (binomial) names. This last point may change soon, = but I=20 don't think that anybody expects all systematists to drop = the =20 rank-based codes tommorw and adopt the PhyloCode; that's what I will = do (and=20 most participants of the First International Phylogenetic Nomenclature = Meeting), except for species names, but I know that some = of my=20 colleagues won't follow us, at least right now.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><X-TAB> =20 </X-TAB>Sincerely,</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><X-TAB> = </X-TAB>Michel</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite"><FONT size=3D-1>In several responces on = my last=20 communication, an idea occurs that Phylogode is designed for = cladists and=20 that those non-cladist guys disagree with it are free to go their = own way.=20 OK, it looks like a special kind of plurality in science which I = like very=20 much and even published a paper entitled "It is normal for the=20 classificatory approaches to be diversed". But does such a = nomenclatorial=20 pluralism presumes that several Codes of nomenclature are allowed to = rule=20 over taxonomic community? Suppose rigorous cladists (of whatever = school)=20 will reject the International Code and will adopt the Phylocode on=20 one of the Willi Hennig society meetings - then what about = unity=20 of taxonomic language in general and nomenclature stability in=20 particular?</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite"> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite"><FONT = size=3D-1>Igor</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite"> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite"><FONT size=3D-1>P.S. A quesion to the = moderator:=20 will you please explane if a responce to a comment came from a = particular=20 e-mail address woulld circulate over all forum=20 participants?</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite"><FONT size=3D-1>- - -<BR>Dr. Igor Ya.=20 Pavlinov<BR>Chief, Division of Mammals<BR>Zoological = Museum<BR>Moscow=20 M.V.Lomonosov State University<BR>ul. Bol. Nikitskya, 6<BR>125009=20 Moscow<BR>Russia<BR>Tel.: (095)2032940<BR>Fax:=20 (095)2032717<BR>E-mail:</FONT> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:igor_pavlinov@zmmu.msu.ru"><FONT=20 size=3D-1>igor_pavlinov@zmmu.msu.ru</FONT></A><FONT=20 size=3D-1><BR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><X-SIGSEP><PRE>--=20 </PRE></X-SIGSEP> <DIV>Michel Laurin<BR>FRE 2696, CNRS<BR>Universit=E9 Paris 7 - Denis=20 Diderot<BR>2, place Jussieu<BR>case 7077<BR>75005 = Paris<BR>FRANCE<BR><BR>tel.=20 (33 1) 44 27 36 92<BR>fax. (33 1) 44 27 56=20 = 53<BR>http://tolweb.org/tree/laurin/Laurin_Home_page.html</DIV></BLOCKQUO= TE></BODY></HTML> --Boundary_(ID_XOh5UobvFDNGlMx/PhlUeA)--